Thursday 2 December 2010

Dulce Et Decorum Est

I forgot to draw your attention today to the passage in 'Hugh Selwyn Mauberley' where Ezra Pound quotes the same 'old Lie' that Wilfred Owen uses in the title and the close of his poem. There Pound writes
 These fought, in any case,
and some believing, pro domo, in any case . .     
Some quick to arm,
some for adventure,
some from fear of weakness,
some from fear of censure,
some for love of slaughter, in imagination,
learning later . . .

some in fear, learning love of slaughter;
Died some "pro patria, non dulce non et decor". .
By chance, I also found this translation into Turkish of poem V of 'Hugh Selwyn Mauberley'. I have no idea whether it is good, or accurate, but it might be of interest. Perhaps one of you can tell me?

You might also be interested to see the manuscript of Wilfred Owen's first draft of 'Dulce Et Decorum Est', here, at the British Library's web page. Click on 'see transcript' to see a typed version of his first draft. The page also has some brief commentary on the poem. If you click on 'enlarge' - or directly here - you can see the whole first page of the manuscript properly.

Among other things, the British Library website states the following, which I didn't know (and probably should have - and so should you!):
At the time of the First World War, the poet Owen Seaman, who was editor of Punch magazine, wrote patriotic verses under the title, 'Pro Patria' that urged young men to the fight - though he himself, being 53 years old, remained as one "whose burden is to watch and wait." Those at a less comfortable distance from the fighting saw it differently. In his revelation of the reality of war Owen uses the Roman motto ironically, calling it "the old lie".
Finally, I discovered that the British Prime Minister, David Cameron, recently named 'Dulce Et Decorum Est' as his favourite poem. I'll leave you to decide how many levels of irony there are to that.....

12 comments:

  1. the translation is quite good, almost directly translated. Still, the original one sounds better and is surely more impressive than the Turkish version.

    Selver

    ReplyDelete
  2. that's right, lines 3 and 4 could have been better tho. what does "for an old bitch gone in the teeth" refer to by the way, I forgot to ask.

    ReplyDelete
  3. * there is one extra line there at the end of the second piece which should have been 2 lines. which means the translator is using more words than needed. he is doing that because he has to translate it almost word by word. but it is not fitting ezra pound's style. Plus, the translator is said to be using imagism in his own turkish poems. i guess he understood imagism wrong =) he has no literary education, he dropped a law school and graduated the philosophy department of literature faculty at London university which has no literature faculty at all! also the university archives doesnt record any student by his name in the philosophy department! and this guy has 3 awards about literature! what a country!!!!!

    * the word "adına" in the beginning of the last two lines means "in the name of" but we need something that sound more negative.

    take a better look girls, this translation sucks!!!

    ReplyDelete
  4. here is my version, i'm translating it right now;

    sayısız asker öldü orada,
    hemde içlerinden en iyileri,
    dişsiz bir orospu için,
    yamalı bohça bir medeniyet uğruna.

    tılsımlı, gülen güzel ağızları
    ve dipdiri gözleri kapandı toprakla.

    bir kaç düzine kırık heykel
    ve yanlış basılmış 3-5 bin kitap hayrına.

    so, below is my comment on my own translation;

    * i used "yamalı bohça" for "botched" and it literally means a "mottley collection" as zargan.com reads. in turkish language it is like a pack made with pieces of patches, and is a metaphor for things which are not done properly, like in pieces. it seemed a good metaphor on the western civilization.

    * "eyes gone under the earth's lid" means the eyes were closed by the lids made of earth. the turkish will get the point. my translation literally means exactly the same.

    * "quick" also means alive, lively as in the quick and the dead. so "dipdiri" is equivalent of it. charm, good these words also feel as if they are talking about the young boys.

    * "gross" is 12 dozens or 144 items. i just said a few dozens t5here in the turkish translation.

    * "battered" : my old and very credible dictionary gives the details of an error about the press techniques, and the spelling errors in a book stemming from this particular problem is called by that word. so i just wanted to use this word saying : "yanlış basılmış"

    * "hayrına" means "for the sake of" thought it would be quite ironic with the battered books.

    ReplyDelete
  5. the translation does not suck in my opinion that much. you go so much into detail. as i also stated before, the translator tried to translate all word by word,that is the thing which makes the original poem lose its magic. Still it does not suck.
    Selver

    ReplyDelete
  6. go so much into detail? we are talking about a small piece of translation and you are telling me that darling? there is too little to go into here in terms of quantity. all i did was to look 3 word up in a big dictionary. and i detected so much problems. all word by word translation is not always pass, it is fail most of the time and here as well. my translation doesnt keep all the original magic of it of course, yet at least sounds better. translation is one thing, literary translation or poem translation is another. i, a 22 year old student, dont try to battle with a 60-year-old guy whose graduation records does not even exist at the university's database! he is recognized as a philosophy teacher not a literary figure, note that. i only want to see little respect to the things has been done so far in the name of literature. ooops, i forgot that we are talking about a bunch of paper mis-pressed. i'm sorry..

    ReplyDelete
  7. sure, word by word translation is never the best! everyone is aware of this.
    still, the translation above can tell the poem. It does not ruin the poem completely as you sugessted. That is why, i said it does not suck.
    Selver

    ReplyDelete
  8. i think it tastes like what stalks might =)

    ReplyDelete
  9. As I said before, I can't judge the translations at all, but I'm delighted you've done your own. Maybe you all ought to put together the IKU anthology of English Modernist Poetry in Turkish! On a slightly different note, I wouldn't make so much of the other translator's literary credentials, or lack of them. Surely it's just the quality of the poem/translation that matters - and you seem to be able to make a good argument for the shortcomings of that (although of course I can't judge).

    I would say that insisting on the detail is absolutely vital, though. Marking your midterms, the best answers are almost always those that really analyse the details - looking at the effect of an individual word choice, at the effect of particular rhymes, really analysing individual images or metaphors. Too many remain on the level of generalities.

    On that note, I'm not sure about your dictionary's definition of 'battered' - what is this problem with the press? Can you clarify this? I'm curious....

    ReplyDelete
  10. oh, about the "battered" word, my dictionary talks about this word with mtb. in italics which means printing in turkish. as i was not so sure about the vocabulary to use in order to translate my ole dictionary, i looked it up on the answers.com and found this : n. Printing
    A damaged area on the face of type or on a plate. =) and i dont think that i have been dealing on much details on the exam sheet =p

    ReplyDelete
  11. battered books: books that have been damaged in a bookshop and are sold cheaply (www.publishingdictionary.com)

    To me, Hilmi Yavuz's translation is an "acceptable" one. By the way, he is a faculty member of the Department of Turkish Literature at Bilkent University, although he had no literary education. He is one of the known translators of Pablo Neruda's poems (I suppose from their English translations into Turkish).

    And here is my translation:

    On binlercesi can verdi orada
    En iyileriydiler, üstelik,
    Kocamış bir kancığın,
    Kokuşmuş bir uygarlığın uğrunda.

    Albenisi, gülümsemesi daha hâlâ dudaklarında
    Çakmak çakmak gözleri toprakla kapandığında.

    İki yıkık heykel kalıntısı ve
    Birkaç bin eprimiş kitap uğrunda.

    (Waiting for your comments...)

    Pınar Besen

    ReplyDelete
  12. Hi Pinar, & sorry, I only just came across your comment, and translation, which unfortunately I'm not (yet!) in a position to comment upon. Hopefully some others will have something to say about it. If anyone wants to talk me through the differences between the three Turkish versions we now have (!), I'd be intrigued. I'm working with an Italian poet at present on some translations (into Italian) of a Scottish poet, so questions of translation are very much to the forefront of my mind...

    ReplyDelete